UCC Committee Meeting Minutes 2019-03-29 ======================================== Attendance: =========== ## Committee: ### Present: - [MPT] James Arcus [Vice President] - [THA] Tom Hill Almeida [Treasurer] - [DBA] David Adams [OCM] - [TEC] Timothy Chapman [OCM] - [JGM] James Myburgh [OCM] - [420] Albert Smith [Fresher Rep] ### Late: - [FVP] Felix von Perger [President] - [MSX] Melissa Star [Secretary] ### Apologies: ## Non-Committee: - [JWB] William Chesnutt - [MLG] Grace Rosario - [BOB] Andrew Adamson - [NTU] Nick Bannon - [] Finn Murphy ## Mentioned: - [042] [333] [DJF] [GOZ] [TAY] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Meeting opened 15:04* *In attendance at opening: [MPT], [THA], [DBA], [TEC], [JGM], [420], [JWB], [MLG]* ## Confirmation of minutes from 2019-03-15 - Passes unanimously ## Motions passed by circular - Reimbursement of [NTU] $280.00 for coke run Committee Reports ================= - [FVP] Motion to skip straight ahead to general business - Reports and information can be added to the agenda by committee beforehand - *Note: Reports were added beforehand, but motion lapsed at meeting* ## President's Report - Should probably stop starting flame wars. - First technical glitch while taking minutes in over 12 months! - AKA minutes from latter part of last meeting got deleted - Found inspiration from the 2015 AGM, of all places, and would like to share with committee (thanks to [BG3]): ``` - My words of advice for #nextmittee - 0. We all make mistakes - 1. Book a holiday, take a break - 2. Do things because they make sense, not because tradition - 3. Be professional, people look at UCC - 4. Talk to people, find a mentor, ask questions - 5. Be prepared to challenge peers - 6. Take a step back, don't lose your vision - 7. Acknowledge your peers - 8. Don't assume it makes an ass out of u and me - 9. Listen to advice, don't take it ``` ## Vice President's Report - Have been less available for UCC business this week than hoped due to Uni work - As such have been less in-touch with the goings on this week, but eager to see things resolved fairly - Attended a meeting with Westpac to be added as an approver for the account - Considering running a(n intro) hardware-focused tech talk in a free slot later in the semester - Need to organize material and probably actual hardware to give to people to play with... ## Secretary's Report ## Treasurer's Report - We still have money - I'm getting thoroughly confused about where some of the money goes or appears from - We randomly got about $8 in bags that are not mentioned anywhere that I can find - If people want to donate, please put it on their account and then use `dispense donate`, it makes my life easier - Weekly reminder to Felix that I'm the treasurer now, not the VP - Update: I have now figured out where the money went!! Books are up to date. ## Fresher Rep's Report - Nothing to report ## OCM Reports ### David Adams [DBA] - Put events up some time in the past - Have been communicating with Makers about collaboration for Project Night - Actively considering resigning -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Machine Technical Reports ========================= ## Servers - Merlo is having problems mounting homes on reboot - This is actually important - New-Undead-Maltair is now alive and working (the new HP DL380p G8 server, that is) - Thanks to [BOB] for setting that up - A number of VMs have been migrated back over ## Network - Clubroom ethernet port 11 has died (most probably) ## Desktops ## Misc. - SW webcam is still broken - Might need a shorter stretch of cable for some reason - Needs looking in to -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New equipment ============= - Drive caddies for the Cisco server Drinks and Snacks ================= - Thanks to [NTU] for doing a drinks run -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- External Entities ================= ## Mail - Check the mail! - Not done ## Guild/SOC - Next SOC meeting 10th April 2019 - [MPT] volunteers as tribute - Need to check whether OCMs are allowed to submit EMPs for club events, not just exec ## Other Entities Events ====== ## Fresher Welcome - [MPT] - Handover guide - Not done ## Tech talks - [FVP] - Talk on Tuesday went well - Thanks to [MPT] and [AJT] for organising the pizza run - [FVP] still needs to prepare the slides for next week's session :-3 - Assistance would be very much appreciated ## Vive nights - [GIR] - Reminder from [GIR] to put the cables back in the Vive box ## Movie nights - Nothing happened for 2 weeks - Anyone want to run them? Otherwise let's cancel - [JGM] speaks for keeping them, building attendance - [JWB] thinks that events usually drop off and don't come back, so unlikely - [MPT] It doesn't cost us to keep running them ## Camp - [FVP], [MPT] - [FVP] sent the google drive link to [MPT] - Action: [FVP] Collate camp docs from 2018 and organise time with [MPT] to work on the EMP/RMP stuff - EMP needs to be completed 8 weeks prior to the event - [MPT] is planning to look through EMP material after the meeting *[FVP], [MSX], and Finn enter 15:09* ## Dine Below the Line - No news from other clubs yet. ## Cameron Hall Quiz Night - [THA], [JGM] - [JGM] Didn't show up to the meeting cause he didn't realize it would be organized on Facebook - Have now sent apologies - [THA] Budget not changed since then, minutes will be sent on to committee when they are had ## Sam @ Aristotle Metadata - Talk on startups (5-12 May??) - Time to get advertising started - DO THIS ASAP - Action: [JGM] Get advertising started for talk - [FVP] Need to talk to Sam about the material to present and what sort of venue he wants - [MLG] What attendance is expected? Can ask for a lecture room - Book a venue - Action: [MPT] Talk to UWA Venues -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action Items from 2019-03-15 ============================ - [MPT] Write handover doc for fresher welcome - Not done yet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- General Business ================ *[NTU] enters 15:15* ## What follows is a transcription of the meeting - by [MLG] - 18hr - - Key: - POC: Point of clarification - JTC: Just to clarify - ": Are for people quoting themselves - ': Are for people quoting others - (): Missing - /cutoff: when someone is cutoff from speaking ------------------------Start of voice recording------------------------------- 00:00:00 - 00:06:29 - Chair passed to [FVP] - Wheel applications - [DAS] Donald Sutherland - [FVP] Motion to add [DAS] to wheel - [420] seconds - Passes unanimously - [MLG] Motion for this meeting to deal with any complaints brought up prior to today or to elevate it to the relevant body - [THA] seconds - [MPT] agrees - Passes unanimously - [FVP] Issues have been reported with [BOB]'s behaviour - previously been called a complaint - no official complaint has been made [MSX] Going to mention her experience, and then also what [FVP] has told her. Will attempt to be succinct - New member of UCC, joined the club on uncharity night; enthusiastic about club - was shown the server room - was invited to collocate a machine - Attempted to do so - Met resistance from Adam Adamson aka [BOB], who said UCC does not do this - [MSX] knows this to be untrue - I told him that [FVP] said that that I could - He accused me of lying - Found opposition to: - machine being put into the room - Being connected to the internet - machine being properly firewalled - Insuations that [MSX] was to competent to admin the machine - A different experience to guys who have previously collocated machine has had - According to other people [MSX] has spoken to - This was a minor issue - Lots of different place that [MSX] can put servers in - Does not have to be at UCC - By the time [MSX] removed their machine it had grown an administrator password - Which on an IBM machine cannot be removed without changing the system board - [MSX] does not know how it happened - Hypothesises that unigames didn't close one of their bottles of gremlins properly - Subsequently, [MSX] has had to spend $130 replacing the system board in order to use the machine - After pulling it out of UCC - Assumes that this is not the normal experience of people who collocate in UCC - [JGM] Is there any precedence of anyone who doesn't already have full access to UCC systems collocating machines into the club? - [MLG] My impression is that normally, when machines are collocated into the club, they have wheel keys on them, correct? - [FVP] I believe that has been the procedure for colocations made in the past, however, as [FVP] is aware, objectively, yes we do (put wheel keys on collocated machines) but as far as [FVP] knows all other members that have collocated machines have been wheel members and life members. - [NTU] No. There are physical machines and VMs and they are not so different. I don't think either of those things are relevant. Is your statement complete? - [MSX] No. I was interrupted. Have not yet said the majority of what she wishes to say - Believe it to be a minor matter - Pointing it out in that there was a search through the regulations to say no to me, when the instinct of the club president was to say yes. - But this is not the reason. Had this issue existed in isolation, I would not be making any complaints. It is not sufficiently important. - My machine was potentially vandalised, I'm not making any claims for sure, because I don't know what happened or how but it's not standing in great credit to the club - Whatever happened, happened - The issue ... *FIRE ALARM GOES OFF* *Meeting is adjourned due to fire alarm* 00:13:14 - 00:20:01 *Reconvened outdoors at 15:28* - [THA] Weekly reminder to [FVP] that I'm treasurer not VP - [FVP] Moving on - [MSX] If I can continue - Without dwelling on this storm in a teacup stuff it came to my attention that putting a server in ucc is a very big deal and not just a 'anyone who wants to can do it' - And as a result I felt obligated to the club - Shortly after that [FVP] approached me, a few days before the AGM and said 'can you be treasurer, we need a grown-up to do it' - [FVP] interjects "That isn't exactly what I said" - [FVP] Wasn't under the impression that we had someone running for the role of treasurer so I asked if Melissa could run for it - That's what I said - [MSX] He quote 'sucked up to me' unquote - [MSX] I would not normally volunteer to be treasurer of a club I've been a member of, and in the end I became secretary - well we'll get to that - that I've been a member of for a number of weeks - But having gone and put a server in the server room and been asked, I did not feel it was appropriate to say no - And I understood that this was expected of me in return for this (putting a machine in the server room) - Meeting came up, was nominated as secretary, accepted the nomination, and was duly voted - Which is how I became secretary of the club - Having been a member of the club for just a few weeks - This is where things went drastically wrong - This first thing is: I was under the impression that I was nominating to be secretary of a 'guild' club, I in fact became secretary of an Incorporated Association under the West Australian Associations Act - Which has all the responsibilities of a company director - I do not have the clueless student defence because I am: 1. A director of a PTY company and 2. I am a law student, who will have to be seen as a fit and proper person for the bar upon graduation - Made me a bit concerned - Was made to sign to lease for the clubroom which made me a bit more concerned; - Then we went back to the clubroom, [BOB] came along, and gave me a list of things that the secretary is expected to do - And then said 'oh, you are not going to be able to do this thing and this thing and this thing and other things because you are not a member of wheel - [FVP] Point of information: This and the complaints raised, the specific things that [MSX] is referring to were documented in an email and forwarded to committee - [MLG] Were any complaints forwarded to [BOB] - [FVP] No, to committee - [NTU] *Opens his mouth* /cutoff - [MSX] Let me get to the end, I'm being interrupted while I'm trying to say something important which is also difficult for me emotionally to talk about - [FVP] [NTU] Let give [MSX] /cutoff - Finn: I didn't hear the end of what you were saying - [FVP] So, the things that [MSX] is talking about now have been shared with committee in written form - [NTU] Committee or committee-only - [FVP] Have been shared with committee-only, which is committee - [NTU] The club executive committee? - [FVP] Yes - [JGM] POC At what time was this sent to committee - (Added now: email circulated to committee-only on 2019-03-25) - [FVP] I don't think that's relevant, it was sent by email - [MSX] We can clarify that and add it to the minutes later - Some of this will make more sense if I'm allowed to finish what I'm saying before people start to clarify. - Following this information from [BOB] that I would not be able to do a bunch of tasks within my job which I interpreted as being, I would not be able to comply with my responsibilities under the associations act, the WA associations act, because I would not have custody of documents - He said that, 'I will not be able to do them because I am not a member of wheel' - I asked, 'Should I be a member of wheel?' - And he said, 'You will never be a member of wheel because I do not trust you' - And the implication was that he didn't like me and didn't want me on wheel - I was not in a mind to fight this - I was upset - I went to [FVP] after everyone had gathered in the tav for a while and told him "I cannot be secretary of this club. I need to resign. I cannot accept the role" - [FVP] then told me... he talked me into staying - Including a possibility that if I left he would leave as well - which put me in an awkward situation - and I said, "look, if I'm going to stay; it is difficult for me because I am a law student and I need to fully comply with the associations act - That means that I need custody of all of the various documents, the list of members, the constitution, the various other legally compliant documents, whatever - There is a difference between access and custody, custody means, if it's a paper document, that it's in my filing cabinet that I have the key to - If it's an electronic document, that I have read-write access and authority over everyone else's access and under what circumstances and what time - That is what the associations act requires - [NTU] The things you have mentioned in the last couple of minutes, are they still the case, or are you giving us a historical /cutoff - [MSX] I am giving you a historical record in that I have now given notice to resign and part of the reason is that I cannot get this custody - [NTU] Are you telling us that this is historical, that was what you thought at the time or /cutoff - [MSX] I am telling you, as a historical, what I thought at the time - [NTU] (continues) or has there been any update to that, because several of those things were thoroughly resolved weeks ago - [MSX] Yes and no 00:20:02 - 00:30:09 - [MSX] I was unable to post, to give you a specific example, I was unable to post minutes to the website prior to the last committee meeting - The script would not run when I ran it - Or rather, it would run, return an error and the meetings did not update because of the lack of permission on my part - A lack of sufficient access to systems - [FVP] POC on that. There was, uhh, I at least rewrote the scripts when I was secretary and was not, like, I can't be sure exactly how they work, and there are probably things that are broken so, I, that needed to be checked, but the point stands - [JGM] POC On the record, that not being able to publish to the website is different to not complying with the associations act - [MSX] I did not have custody over the documents - My understanding, which may be wrong, I'm only a law student, not a lawyer - My understanding, is that for custody of documents, if it were a paper document, I have to have it and I have to have the key to where it's stored - [JGM] POC I'm asking on the topic of publishing minutes, does that mean that in that example, that not being able to publish them to the website is not complying with the associations act - [MSX] That was an example, I am unaware if that is sufficient or not. It is possible that that is sufficient. In general, my inability to access and or have read-write access, like have authoritative access to files at best made me uncertain of my compliance and at worst made me non-compliant and I was unable to resolve that - [FVP] Okay, uhh /cutoff - [MSX] Now the fundamental issue, this is one issue, was actually having access, the other issue was that I did not feel I had the confidence of wheel or other parts of the club for my being in the wrong, and in particular, did not have confidence of [BOB] - Now, as a result of that, I requested to resign - When I requested to resign as well as asking me to stay, and like, really pushing me to stay, [FVP] told me a number of other allegations about Adam Adamson, [BOB](sic) - *[FVP] corrects* Andrew Adamson - [MSX] confirms, Andrew Adamson, sorry, Andrew Adamson. God. - [FVP] That's right - [MSX] Okay. About [BOB]. Specifically, that he had consumed alcohol in the clubroom; that he had duplicated keys to the clubroom, without permission; and that he had acted in various other ways, I don't want to make a whole long thing, contrary to regulation - [MLG] This was alleged drinking in the clubroom, alleged making copies /cutoff - [MSX] What I said, was that [FVP] told me the following allegations. That is what I said. Please, this is difficult for me to do, and I need to do it without being constantly interrupted - [FVP] Yup, go ahead. - [MSX] And the following day I had a phone call from a former committee member, who told me much more serious allegations. Mainly that [BOB] had committed insurance fraud by misrepresenting the nature and condition of machines that were damaged in the 2010 hail storm and that he had acted dishonestly with the bank. - That was, sorry, that was not the same person, that was another person who later told me that he had acted dishonestly with the bank by purporting that UCC was not incorporated as an association before it was, opening an account and then pushing through it incorporation - I'll say again, these are allegations that were made to me - I was in no position to verify or not - But they concerned me, given the role that I have - [JGM] POC Are you saying here that, to the greatest extent of your knowledge, that is the case, or are you merely /cutoff - [MSX] I am saying that my phone rang and I was told these things by these people and that in a meeting with [FVP] [FVP] told me such and such. That is what I'm saying. - I am in no position having been in this club for a few weeks / cutoff - [FVP] Excuse me, sorry. *Comments directed at individuals who were having discussions out of range of the mic* [MLG] and one other? - [FVP] Can you please, like, be respectful. If you want to talk you can go somewhere else. - [MLG] Okay - [MSX] Yeah. To verify these allegations. But as a new member of the club, to be put into this position of responsibility of an association; this made me very concerned - At the same time, there was a hostility -I missed an important detail- At the same time that [BOB] told me that I can't do my role, he had told me that he intended to firewall my server so that it wouldn't have access to the internet and that I would have to apply to wheel, effectively meaning him to open ports up one by one. - [FVP] Yes, [JGM], sorry. - [JGM] POC Did he give any reasoning behind that? - [MSX] The reasoning as I understood it was that he does not like me and does not trust me - [JGM] Is that (missing 25:12 ) - [MSX] That is what I understood from our conversation. I did not have a tape recorder and I was very emotionally distressed. But that is the impression I was left with. - Finn: Sorry, I was going to add to that to say that you have expressed that that is something that [BOB] said directly to you, but you don't have evidence of it. - [MSX] Yeah, I did not have a tape recorder at the time. And if I had known this would happen, I wouldn't have needed a tape recorder because I would not have accepted the nomination of secretary and this whole conversation would not be happening - [JGM] Umm - [FVP] Yes (to Finn) - Finn: We could do without the eyerolling please - [MLG] Okay - [MSX] What is the eyerolling here? I am explaining what has happened /cutoff - [FVP] Sorry, let's not get onto the eyerolling, [JGM] do you have a point? - [JGM] Umm, I just /cutoff - [FVP] No okay. *to [MSX]* Keep going - [MSX] Now, following this there were two committee meetings that I attended. At the first committee meeting, there was a motion to punish [FVP] effectively, I'm going to translate it all out of the meta language. There was a motion to reprimand [FVP] for a breach of ethics of wheel which involved him giving me sufficient access which is what I requested which is that I had sufficient access, which I understood to be wheel access; I would have asked for it differently if I had a better understanding; to be able to have custody of the documents that needed to have custody of. - He went ahead and did this, after speaking with a number of other committee members - He was then given a warning - A number of people wanted him to be punished more severely /cutoff - [FVP] Yes, [JGM] - [JGM] Sorry, you finish your sentence - [MSX] That upset me further. I was not able to put those minutes up - The following meeting, a motion with the same substance was introduced a second time on the basis that the minutes taken were inadequate as they were not put up on the website which I was not able to do - Another motion was taken to derail a project I had, based on the /cutoff - [FVP] I believer this is getting off topic. we are discussing the issues raised about [BOB] - [MSX] Okay - [FVP] Sorry, [JGM] - [JGM] JTC At the point that you had that discussion with [FVP] Were you aware of the standard procedure for applying for wheel? - [MSX] I was not clear of the standard procedure of applying for wheel, no. - What [BOB] had told me was that it is by invitation and that there was no point for me to hope at any point to be admitted to wheel because he would not allow it because he does not like me and he does not trust me. He insinuated that it was his decision. - [JGM] In those words? or... - [MSX] I believe he said; he definitely said he doesn't trust me, and he gave me the impression he really doesn't like me from the hostility of the situation - [FVP] POC: Actually, never mind. I don't want to go down that path. Umm - [JGM] POC: So the trust element was mentioned directly, the rest was inferred. - [MSX] It was insinuated very strongly - [MLG] POC: About the complaints about [FVP] putting you onto a *wheel-like position* Who made those complaints? - [FVP] Well, okay. Well, that was sort of what I was going to get at before. Umm, that was, as far as I know, raised by [TPG] and then there was a whole conversation on the wheel and committee-only were cc'd into that - [MLG] Is that relevant to the current complaint? - [FVP] I don't believe that is relevant to this issue - [MLG] Okay - [FVP] That is a side issue, and that's been dealt with already - [NTU] I don't believe that's completely relevant, but I believe it can be separated and it's not yet resolved. - We've scheduled a wheel meeting. - [JGM] JTC My understanding was that it was resolved by committee to give him a warning - Could you clarify on what you mean by unresolved? - [MSX] The issue was raised again in the second committee meeting. - [NTU] I'm not sure if it was - [THA] What was raised was that the exact count of votes was not entirely certain because there seemed to be one person missing from the count of votes - That's why it was brought up a second time - [FVP] I believe this is off-topic. Let's get back. - That discussion can be had at another time, this one we are listening to [MSX] - [MSX] Okay. 00:30:09-00:34:00 - [MSX] I am going to avoid a lot of [30:15] and get to the point. I received from quite a number of other people complaints about wheel, about [BOB] generally, about [BOB] in particular - The general trend though was that people were happy to talk to me and did not want their name published - That leaves me in a difficult situation - Now, the easiest thing for me to do individually, is simply to resign and take myself out of a situation where I am unable to comply with the legal requirements. - But I wanted to document what has happened, because a whole lot of other people have had complaints and they've never been documented, apparently, allegedly if you'd like; that's allegedly because they were never documented, and a lot of people that I have spoken to on this campus do not want to be members of UCC because of bad experiences they've had in spite of being "geeks" - And that is not an unusual situation, particularly among women. - [MLG] Is that all related to [BOB] though? - [MSX] A lot of it is - [FVP] Potentially, but it's like, we don't know for sure, but anyways - It was my opinion and impression from what's going on that a lot of it is but it is not just [BOB] it is a, what I would call an 'alt-right' culture that exists within the club. - [FVP] Alright, so, umm, yes [JGM] - [JGM] JTC: Regarding culture, would you be able to highlight some other instances of this? - [MSX] I circulated a piece of paper that had a whole number of comments from other people, including their names, that committee have in their possession /cutoff - [FVP] Sorry, I'm going to say I do believe this discussion, while it is potentially relevant, it is going off topic, we are discussing [BOB] not the club. - [MSX] I believe that [BOB] has played a key role in creating this culture. - [FVP] Yes, however, let's discuss specific evidence - [MSX] The problem is, I've only been in this club for a short period of time. I am not in a position to go and be a detective and gather evidence. - I've told you all what's been happening to me. I've been made to feel very uncomfortable. - At one point I was talking about my experience and one person behind me, I wasn't sure who it was, interrupted said 'you're lying'. - I am quite able to substantiate my experience and credentials for anyone who is interested but it was like, the sort of experiences: support expressed in the clubroom for Frasier Anning, ahhh, like, when, you know, defending him right after the egg bombing incident - all of these things, look, individually are explainable, in combination uncomfortable - [JGM] POC: That support was in principle against violence and was not in support of his ideology - [THA] As far as I am aware, the only thing that was mentioned in the clubroom regarding that was that he shouldn't have been egged, but, he's wrong but he should not have been egged. - [MSX] There was also an opposition in the /cutoff - [FVP] Sorry, [NTU] - [NTU] JTC We can move on to the second part, we were talking about culture /cutoff - [FVP] Okay, that is a good point, - [NTU] Can I? - [FVP] Yes, okay - [NTU] Can you confirm that? That the second part /cutoff - [MSX] This is difficult enough to do without other people interrupting /cutoff - [FVP] [NTU] I will respond to that by saying that this discussion has gone off topic and will go back to [BOB] not the culture *[BOB] arrives at 15:50* 00:34:01-00:42:53 Finn: I was just going to ask if these three people here *points out [THA] [MLG] [JWB]* could stop whispering while [MSX] is talking - [MSX] There is more that I can say, but I don't feel very comfortable in this situation /cutoff - [FVP] Sorry, [MSX] On that note, given this has come up already, I would like to name [JWB] , [MLG], [THA] for being disrespectful for during the meeting. - [THA] She asked who Frasier Anning was, and I responded - [MLG] I asked who made the complaint about Frasier Anning - [FVP] Well, the warning stands and if you continue to whisper behind, if you want to ask a POC you may do so, umm, however, I would respectfully ask that you leave the meeting, if you wish to discuss matters unrelating to the meeting - [MSX] The end result of this thing is that people who do not trust as an individual, is that people *lots of people talking 34:55* -[MSX] People who do not trust me have gotten what they wanted and I am no longer going to be a committee member of this club and in all probability am not going to continue to be a member of this club - And there will no longer be any issues over whether people trust me or not - I have already paid to replace my server, which had an administrator password put on it, I'm not sure how and I'm not saying that anyone in particular has done it - but, look, I can't speak for the people who are too scared to speak up. I can't do that. I'm not in a position to do that. - But, I can report my own experiences and resign myself out of a position when I don't feel that I can be in compliance with the associations act and on my part apologise for any discomfort that I have caused anyone, or any hurt. - Or anything that I may have got wrong or misunderstood or misinterpreted people's intentions, which is always possible - but there is a reality out there which I am going to close off in that if you go out there and start asking women around this campus what they think of UCC, or queer people who do not identify as male think of UCC, you get a very predictable answer - And anyone who wants to do that can go and try, and that will speak for itself. - Beyond that, that's all I've got to say - [FVP] Alright, okay. Well, I suppose would you like me to clarify with what I have said - [MSX] confirms - [FVP] So, very briefly, what I said that was in response to hearing about more complaints and people like, someone came to me /cutoff *but politely* - [JGM] I had a question while she was talking - JTC with regards to when it was said that you were not trusted, was is you as an individual or as people who have not been around the club as a whole for a long time - [MSX] I didn't get an impression that it was because I was new to the club - I may be going by my life experience because I get to be, for better or worse, I get to be a transgender woman whether I am in this club or not and when I walk into a room and somebody who hasn't had a chance to assess yet whether I'm trustworthy or not doesn't trust me, I make some assumptions as to why and, I certainly know because I lived and was a 'geek' on both sides of transition, I didn't make that reaction before. - And it's not my technical or standards, or how I go about things that has changed between when I was perceived in the other gender than I am now and now - So yeah, I have no proof, once again, to connect that, and maybe even [BOB] I assume you didn't intentionally, I assume it was not your intention to say you didn't trust me because I am trans - These is such a thing as subconscious bias, where a person doesn't trust someone because they are not what they expect to walk in the door - and the fact that it's not an intentional process doesn't make it any better - [FVP] Would anyone like to say anything further on that before I move on? - [BOB] In terms of trusting people - I've got a couple of people who are quoted on IRC without me asking that 'that they don't think they would trust anybody to be added to wheel in under six months' - Indeed, I don't think we ever have - I've also got people who've unbidden, written on IRC that, from [AJT], - [FVP] Just a point of order, if you've got quotes to assemble from IRC would we be able to continue the discussion and you can come back to that or ... - [BOB] I just have a lot of them (quotes) - The point is, there is a massive precedent on not trusting people who've joined the club, been very eager, regardless of how eager they are, we typically do not trust people in under six months. So it's not to do with who you are or what you are; I don't care. It's just people in general, we don't trust them - [MSX] Can I just quickly respond please - What I needed was not specifically wheel, what I needed was specifically custody and control over documents that I, as a club secretary, as a secretary of an incorporated association, understand - based on my own understanding, I need custody of and control over - From talking with [FVP] and other people, I gained the impression that wheel was the way to do that. There may be other ways to do that, but I did not in fact just have that access. - [NTU] Wanted clarification earlier, have you finished talking about your historical story, historical impression? - [JGM] Point of order: That was an interruption of [BOB] - [MSX] [BOB] can continue - [BOB] I'm going to rewind a little bit. I believe I am here to answer to a complaint. I have not been told what that complaint is. - [FVP] Right, well, unfortunately you missed that part of the meeting. - [MLG] It hasn't happened yet - [JGM] I'm intending on raising a motion on that regard, but I'll let it get round to me - [NTU] So there's the understanding before, and there's the understanding with the full consideration, and I think the issue of whether or not you can do the secretary's job without wheel, I thought that has been resolved, in the affirmative - [MSX] It has not - [NTU] So I think that point will have to be defended. There are several allegations along that front. And that will have to be tested, because it goes to what you said then, I think it's contradicting what you said earlier - [MSX] No, [NTU] I'm not contradicting what I said earlier - [FVP] Okay, sorry. Yes, [JGM] - [JGM] Interrupting when the chair needs to be in control of the conversation, sorry. - [FVP] Sorry, [NTU] can you please be concise as possible - [NTU] Having heard the statement, there are quite a lot of allegations. I think that is one of the big ones. - [FVP] Which allegation, specifically? - [NTU] There is a claim that [MSX] wants to do something that she could not do, and for example posting minutes on the website, I've checked that, several times, I don't think it's ever been the case, that that was true. There is a complication, there are technical complications, we're talking about scripts, I'm talking about permissions on the file system, which I believe could have been done, and I'm pretty sure you [FVP] know that, and I'm pretty sure I said it this time last week, but it's still being repeated as if it is the current problem, that is the current understanding. 00:42:54 -00:50:28 - [MSX] Let me respond. 1. Of course, theoretically with access to other permission than I'd had, be it sprocket and webmaster,. which is what [FVP] *mumbles 43:05-07* or whatever, all sorts of things are possible. It is possible to change the infrastructure in all sorts of ways, there is no inherent requirement for a club secretary to be a member of any specific group, however, in practice, I was unable, with consulting with other people, to have custody of the documents I required or to fulfil my roles - [BOB] did tell me very clearly that I would not be able to do certain things because I was not a member of wheel, and I went after that and offered to resign - [FVP] I believe that we already covered that - [MSX] I'm making sure that [BOB] hears some of the things that he hasn't yet. Sorry for repeating myself. - [FVP] [JGM] one more thing, okay [NTU] - [NTU] Can I please ask you to be clear, if what you said is your current understanding, or if it was historical /cutoff - [MSX] My current understanding is, as of the committee meeting last week, which was the last time I attempted to - [NTU] Please remain silent while I finish what I am saying - I have run out of patience - [FVP] Okay, [MSX] just, calm down - [MSX] I will not be tripped up using my emotions. It's a common alt-right technique, I do not want to experience. - [FVP] Sorry, objection to that point. [JGM] one thing - [JGM] JTC in regards to the wheel instance, do you feel that there was any, cultural issues asides, do you feel that there was any complaint worthy behaviour besides miscommunication? - [MSX] Besides the fact that my server has an admin password on it mysteriously? Besides being told that I will never a member of wheel. Besides being told, well, it may not be but my server being firewalled as retribution for me accepting the nomination. I don't know for sure, but my belief is that that is the case. - [FVP] Okay, sorry. Can we. I believe this has gone far enough off topic. I will let [BOB] have one more point and then I will go back to what I was saying - [BOB] Actually, I have a point and a question. The point is that 2015-16 we had secretaries that weren't on wheel, and indeed, 2017 the entire committee was not on wheel, and they managed to function. - The question that I have is for [MSX], you've mentioned these assorted things that people all know, have you asked me? - [MSX] Yes, I did. The person who I felt comfortable around, who happens to be club president, which is [FVP], I asked him, he told me that when he was not a wheel, he was unable to do the job of secretary effectively. - Is that correct? - [FVP] That is correct, however, I will clarify that I was able to perform the functions of secretary, maybe not the duties in a purely informed legal sense, because I don't know, because I am not informed. - However, the point that I had to make in response to that specific comment is that it is very useful to be on wheel while being secretary because you don't then have to limit yourself to the existing architecture which is, fundamentally, awful to deal with. And being on wheel means that you actually have a bit more power to do stuff that you otherwise can't do. - Finn: It is my understanding that to properly function as secretary, [MSX] needs certain documents that she's not had access to /cutoff - [MSX] Not access, custody. Custody means, in theory that I could literally deny other people access to those documents - I have to functionally, not that that is really essential, but technically, I need to have the sort of access where I determine who can or can't read or edit or mod, read write or modify the authoritative copy of those documents, so that if those documents change, I am then legally responsible. - Finn: I believe, from what [MSX] has told me, that you would need to be a part of wheel to have access to those documents - [MSX] Not necessarily, but under the current technical setup yes. - [FVP] This is getting a bit off topic - [MSX] We're getting into technical nuisance. - [FVP] These three points, then I will continue what I was saying, and we'll get back on topic. - (1) [JGM] JTC For someone who is one wheel, is it required to be on wheel to obtain access to those documents and B. Is in the context of electronic documents is it a precedence that you have to have sole control over the documents? - [MSX] I have to have sole control over an authoritative copy. - There is a way, which I actually suggested in discussions with [FVP], which, without giving me wheel, is to make a copy of all the relevant documents, and I would then keep myself. And by having control over that copy, and by that copy being authoritative, I would need no special access to any other systems. That was not done - [FVP] Okay,. [BOB] - [BOB] My question is, Is this current topic of conversation relevant to the complaint or issue? /cutoff - [FVP] Okay, [NTU] One last thing - [NTU] I just want to make clear, I think it is clear from the last two points that that point is in very much dispute. - [BOB] A number of wheel members have already answered these questions on IRC - [FVP] What I was going to get back to, and what I believe is the current topic /cutoff - [MSX] Can I just add one very quick sentence? - [FVP] One very quick sentence. Yes. - [MSX] I was not able to achieve a confidence that I have custody over documents I need, or the ability to complete my legal requirements as a secretary, therefore I resigned. - [FVP] I believe this has already been. You stated that. - [MSX] Yes, I'm saying it because I want [BOB] to hear it - [FVP] Okay - [MSX] And that would not have been necessary had any measures been taken to /cutoff - [FVP] POC [BOB] is not a committee member and arrived at this meeting late, and regardless of the circumstances we are discussing a matter as a committee with a number of guest members. - [MSX] I was merely trying to avoid any situation where I have not made the complaint I've made in front of [BOB] - [FVP] Okay, I'm going to get back to what I was saying - [JGM] Can I dispute that on the basis that that is inherently biasing the discussion - [FVP] Okay, what would you... in that case, I retract my previous statement. 00:50:28 - 00:55:21 - [BOB] Thus far, I've been put through weeks *mumble (inactive participant?)* without any details of, you haven't been able to articulate a compliant - I've had enough, and now you are still trying to do it. - What is the complaint? - [FVP] Okay, well. I suppose a POC is a complaint has not been raised with the committee. - There is a statement of fact, or a number of, facts of being aside of the story. - Like, this is what a person is prepared to acknowledge as their, like, thing - We've.. *[JGM] Starts distributing copies of the current dispute resolution process for UCC* - [BOB] So, the complaint was not raised with committee, but some facts were? - [FVP] Some, I was informed as a member of the committee of a number of things, as [MSX] has explained. - [BOB] Can you please tell me what those facts were? - [FVP] They have been brought up already, I would not like to repeat them, however, essentially, to very quickly summarise: - [BOB] said a number of things to [MSX] - [THA] I suggest that [MPT] summarises, as he has been writing the minutes - [MPT] What I have here from before was that [MSX] when she volunteered for the position, she was not fully aware that it was incorporated - [MSX] Not fully aware, I was not aware that UCC was an incorporated association - [MPT] You were given a bunch of jobs to do after the AGM - [MSX] I'll be more specific, [BOB] gave me a list of jobs to do - Is that correct? You came to me with a list of jobs to do? - [BOB] No, it was a list of things that needed doing as part of handover. - [MSX] A list of jobs that needed doing - [BOB] Things (not jobs) - [MSX] Responsibilities as secretary. Things the secretary needed to do. Let's not go into semantics. - [BOB] No, it was things that the secretary needed to make sure happened. - [FVP] Again /cutoff (still sort of speaking) Let's clarify. Let's here a summary of. Sorry - [MSX] Let's not do this. You told me that I would not be able to do them, and would need to find someone else to do them instead of me because I was not a member of wheel. - Yes or no? *[FVP] Finally raises his voice enough to interject* - [FVP] Excuse me everyone, could you please stop speaking. - [BOB] Right, so the rest of /cutoff - [FVP] Ah, [BOB], sorry. We're hearing a clarification of what's been written, a summary. - [MPT] That it was made clear to [MSX] that she wouldn't be able to /cut-off - [MSX] It was not made clear to me, so [BOB] told [MSX] - [MSX] Please be accurate in the minutes here - [MPT] I'm sorry, I'm not a secretary, I'm doing the best that I can. - [FVP] We have voice recordings so let's not get nit-picky about exactly what happened - [JGM] Has the voice recording been running the whole meeting? - [FVP] Ahh, yes it has - [JGM] It might be worth mentioning to everyone that that is the case *It's too bad that no-one was informed that they were being recorded prior to the meeting* - [MPT] And that you, [BOB] told [MSX] allegedly that she would never be on wheel because he didn't trust her - And she thought that the inability to access her the files and have an authoritative copy of them /cutoff - [MSX] Not that I thought, that I would not be able to do a number of my responsibilities and would need to find somebody else - And I understood that, plus the fact that you said my server will now be firewalled, as a 'I do not want you to have this role, you had better leave' - He didn't say that, but it is how I interpreted it - [FVP] [BOB] if you want to say something, please raise your hand. [JGM] Yes? - [JGM] Can I just make a request that we hear [BOB]'s side of the story, because we are diving very deep into *lots of people are talking* - somebody: (Can we/Have we) finished [MSX]'s story. - [FVP] Yes. That's a good point - [BOB] I want to actually get a clarification of what the issue is /cutoff - [MSX] And I'd like the other issues that you ([FVP]) told me from before, being the issues from 2010 - To be talked about and not have my name on them because they were told to me - [FVP] Yes. I was going to get onto that. [MPT] can you finish up then please. - [MPT] The phone call? I don't know if that's exactly relevant. - That all what we had gotten up to when you ([BOB]) arrived 00:55:22- 01:03:50 - [FVP] Just a number of points was that a number of previous committee members had spoken to [MSX] and raised a number of /cutoff - [MSX] Very serious allegations - [FVP] about insurance fraud and opening bank accounts in the... - [MSX] without the correct information - [FVP] Not complaints, allegations. - [BOB] Are you serious? - [MSX] Yes, I am. And I wouldn't have the reaction towards you that I did if I hadn't heard these things. - [BOB] Okay. So wow. Okay. New list. /cutoff - [FVP] Excuse me. So, in response to that, and I believe, have we, at least very briefly summarised - [MSX] There were a lot of issues as well before I ever joined the club - [FVP] To clarify, after the AGM I spoke to [MSX] I brought up a few things and essentially, I heard the complaints about what [BOB] had said - that [MSX] found to be quite offensive - [MSX] Can you be specific and not make this about me. - There wouldn't have been anything between us if it wasn't for the other allegations. - [FVP] On a level of principle - [MSX] Now I'm being serious - [FVP] Okay, I'll just get to the point. I said a number of things to [MSX] which were including the rumours that I'd heard, and mostly jokingly but apparently could be serious allegations. /cutoff - [MSX] These are not funny. - [FVP] I will clarify, these were rumours by my understanding and unfounded at that. - I pointed these out to [MSX] and that was about the claims of insurance fraud. - I believe that [042], the previous secretary, mentioned that as a part of handover /cutoff - [MSX] He didn't mention it to me as a rumour, he believed it to be true. - [FVP] Okay, so it's clearly not everyone considers it as a rumour. - [MPT] [042], he's been a member of the club for less that /cutoff - [FVP] Let's not get caught up in details, this is what /cutoff - [MSX] I then asked other people /cutoff - [FVP] Here's what I was saying, I'll continue to speak. Unless someone has a point of order, or point of clarification then they may raise their hands. - So. Um. I spoke about that and that was mentioned very briefly in passing - I mentioned that there have been a number of issues with [BOB]'s behaviour in the past, specifically, - The beer incident in 2017 was [BOB] was found in the clubroom drinking beer, and tenancy was told about it - And he was given a warning and removed from door - [JGM] Raising a point of order, this is discussing a case that is completely before this. - We are investigating the happenings of this occurrence. *people start all talking* - [MSX] Well this informs my reactions to the other situations - [BOB] Sorry, I would just like to get the whole thing () then we can deal with one issue /cutoff - [FVP] Excuse me, please. If you would like say something please raise your hand. - [BOB] that is a warning. If you wish to leave the meeting then continue doing what you are doing. - [JGM] That would then remove the ability to investigate cause we need both parties present - [FVP] I had a list of things - so there was the beer incident - there was the threatening email to Tom (not sure which Tom is being referred to here) and account locking which resulted in another formal warning - I essentially said that from my experiences having known [BOB] for a reasonable amount of time he is prone to say things that can be very easily misinterpreted or interpreted as being offensive - and this has caused many, this I believe is the reason, and maybe not specifically [BOB]'s behaviour, but [BOB] is often quoted as an example of people who have not come to UCC or are not active in UCC because of such behaviour /cut-off - [MSX] Can I please add two more things. - One of them was copying clubroom keys without permission, that I was told - [FVP] That is true. I have no reason to believe that [BOB] does not have a current copy of a club room key - [MLG] Do you have any reason to believe that [BOB] has a current copy of a clubroom key? - [MSX] And you didn't say one key you said multiple copies - [FVP] Well, multiple different keys but of at least one clubroom keys - [BOB] Sorry, multiple keys? - [FVP] Well, I don't know. - [MSX] Okay, and then the next thing that you said was you were concerned that under certain circumstances, and I'm trying to remember the words carefully, I'll say it a little bit vaguely so that I've definitely got it right - Under certain circumstances [BOB] and/or certain other people might sabotage the machines/servers - [FVP] Ahh, I did. - [MSX] Please give me the correct version of that. - {FVP] I did suggest that that was a possibility having not known , well I had known [BOB] for 12 months before that and I was not of the impression that [BOB] would take any sort of threat to his position as a wheel or life member or member of the club in a light way - And that thus, there was a serious possibility of generally not well-thought-out retaliation. /cutoff - [MSX] And there's another point I wanted to make which is relating to you ([FVP]) do not have confidence that he would abide by wheel ethics and yet he is a member of wheel - [FVP] Yes. Yeah. - [MSX] So that's what I understood from our conversation. - [FVP] [BOB] are you raising your hand? - [BOB] No, I was just pointing out that she was interrupting you there - [MSX] Sorry /cutoff - [FVP] Yeah, okay. *Interruption, but this time no formal warning was given* - [MLG] I had two points to make, the first one, the allegations that have come up previously have actually already been discussed and dismissed - [FVP] Yup. - [MLG] Two, when has [BOB], or anyone on wheel that I know of, who hasn't immediately been kicked off wheel once they got it and destroyed everything, sabotaging machines. Where is the previous evidence of that, that that has happened? That you would say is informing the future. - [JGM] (to [FVP]) based on what you just said, it sounds like you've got a strong bias towards believing [BOB] is guilty - And I am questioning the chairing of this meeting, including as such ignoring instances where people are interrupting and not being held accountable for this. I'd like that minuted - [FVP] Would you like to propose a different chair of the meeting? - [JGM] *mumble* (Yes?) I don't believe I have the right - [THA] I can chair the meeting - [FVP] Okay. If that would satisfy those concerns, then I will hand the chair to [THA] *Chair is passed from [FVP] to [THA]* *some general discussion - probably irrelevant* [TEC] Motion to move back to somewhere with table and chairs, probably Cameron hall loft [FVP] Seconds Passes, 6:1:1 (probably) *Meeting moves back to Cameron Hall* 01:03:51 - 01:09:46 - [MSX] I also want these issues to be out in the open, because they're not the sort of things that you sweep under the rug - [THA] Meeting is reopened. *[MSX] and [THA] are talking at the same time* - [THA] Meeting is reopening, where were we up to? - [THA] So, before we changed the chair and changed locations, I believe we had just finished recapping your complaints to [BOB] - Am I right? *confirmation?* - [MSX] Can I reply? I am not (doing this) for the purpose of this policy-making reform - I am raising issues and concerns so that the club is (informed) - [MSX] I don't think the issues relate exclusively to [BOB] - (or happened when a certain part of it)? - I think there are very serious issues () - [MLG] Could I ask why the committee requested that [BOB] be at this meeting? If there are no complaints about him. - [FVP] POC There was no official committee request that [BOB] be at the meeting - At least as far as I know * there is a lot of noise* - Finn: () *sorry! could not hear that at all* - [JGM] I felt that the complaints aren't raised formally, since the committee views them as your suggestions on what the committee () untypical of two people being in direct conflict () - [BOB] So I feel like she said that there was no formal request that I attend the meeting - There was an agenda item saying there were complaints against me. - You ([FVP]) asked about my availability to, 'for committee to ask me some questions and I will have an opportunity to respond in relation to the complaints' - If that's not a formal request, no. - It's very informal - I should have been a formal request. - Especially if you are going to have an agenda item saying that there are complaints about me - [MSX] We're getting into the definition of the term 'complaints' and I am trying not to misrepresent things - I have some issues with, well, what [BOB] said to me and what happened. - I did not request for this to be resolved by this committee - But I wanted to inform the committee of those issues - And do so in a formal way, I had already done so informally to [FCP] because of () - So that it's not behind people's backs - That does not mean that I want to be dragged into a dispute resolution. - [FVP] So what I'd like to clarify, is and this is about the complaints process, or lack thereof for resolving complaints - There is in fact a precendent in UCC that someone reports something to committee, it can be verbally, by email, this forum or whatever, regardless of what it is. Someone says something to committee and that they have found to be a problem - And that might be a breach of regulations - A complaint of some form in any manner - And it is committee's responsibility as being responsible for the day-to-day running of the club - Well, committee can do what they want and this includes taking disciplinary action against such complaints, or regarding such complaints should it be deemed appropriate - [BOB] Can we break this meeting down into two sections, one of which has a subsection and do this in some sort of sensible order - What I propose, is that first we review the issue of the complaints against me - And then, () because it is evident that we are all here to deal with that, alright - And then we deal with how the complaint is handled. - I think they are both different and both very important issues 01:09:47 - 01:25:50 - [JGM] in a similar vein to what [BOB] is suggestion, I have a motion that I would like to put forward - Before reading this, I would like to clarify the intent of this is not to reduce this as an item that is addressed from a cultural perspective - however, I feel that as an individual dispute it is getting no-where and it is hindering the club from making productive change - [THA] [JGM] can you please read out the motion? Get on with it [JGM] - [JGM] it's essentially I'd like to move that we drop all investigations of the conflict between [BOB] and [MSX] on the basis that there has been incorrect procedure followed - note that this is in breach of the conflict resolution process as listed in the constitution (section 22) *Reads section 22 of the constitution* - [THA] clarifies: The motion is to dismiss, the discussion is that you believe it is due to section 22 of the constitution - [JGM] Due to a number of breaches, most notable that it didn't get started. Breaking into very informal () - [NTU] There was, what I think, is a dangerous idea where you just said someone reports something - and committee is responsible and they can do whatever they like to, against you. - But we have a lot of () to handle this, and if nothing else, there is the issue of due process and natural justice - which is implied by a lot of what we do, and it is not true that committee can do whatever they like - please engage with due process - It's either on or it's off - And that goes for this motion, I think -If it's not on, that has an implication into everything else we're talking about - [BOB] I would just like to say, being that I have no right to vote about this motion, I feel that it would deny me the right of reply - Some very serious allegations have been made here that I think absolutely have to be addressed - That are untrue, and oh my god - Further, the calls that I am aware of being made behind the scenes or have () cancelling my life membership and () - So, I am unsure how this can not be considered a dispute () some linguistic gymnastics - And that's what I have to say about that - [MSX] The reason that this involves a dispute, and I was hoping () is that I tendered my resignation of this club, and I'm only here because of the notice period - As such, it is not really any relevance. The two of us will not be remaining in the same (circles?) in the future - What I’ve done is explained why I resigned and what the issues were - Which the club and the committee can make of them what they wish - And with the hope that the club's culture may change if the allegations are true, they will be resolved - if the allegations are untrue that that will be established - certainly what happened to me, I stand by it being true and it was not nice - What happened beyond that, which [FVP] told me about - () people told me the same thing from all over the place - I am concerned that it has a bearing on my future - [THA] Thank you. Going to end discussion on this motion here. Do we have a second? - [JGM] Do I not get to respond? - [THA] Yes, sorry. One last thing - [JGM] Quickly, as I handed out earlier the dispute resolution policy, () the places in which it was broken - Firstly, I do not get the impression that there was a adequate discussion in regards to resolving this () properly - Whether or not you want to take the stance that this is under some other unreported process - On section 22.2 *reads section* - I feel that no-one instigated this process - No notice given to the secretary of the dispute - () - I struggle to see what this meeting is if it is not a dispute resolution meeting. - [BOB] I would like (the committee) () not a dispute to address the incidents and claims that have been made - [THA] Going to vote on the motion, do we have a second? - [JGM] Can I just jump to the end. *Reads more of section 22* - There hasn't been an opportunity for a written version of the complaint - [MSX] () () - [JGM] I feel that this has been massively mishandled. The point of this motion is not to avoid any discussion about allegations being made - That is important and almost essential - However, I feel that as a formal dispute process, as is defined in the constitution, which is the only formal record that I have - Is completely flawed in looking at it through that lens - [THA] do we have a second? - [MPT] Seconds - Wants to amend/clarify: passing this will not require us to stop considering () - By passing this it means that there is not a dispute under the dispute resolution process, that does not mean by any stretch of the matter that [BOB] is not allowed to address the allegations made of him (reiteration of talk 01:19:50-01:21:30) - [JGM] Rereads motion - [THA] What I have here is motion: - To drop all investigation of the conflict between [BOB] and [MSX] on the basis that there has been incorrect procedure followed, mainly the non-following of section 22. - Of which the specifics are in the about discussion (or go read your constitution) - [FVP] Proposes voting by secret ballet (Voting is happening (and excess chatter)from 01:22:00- 01:25:51) *[MSX] declare no conflict of interest, [FVP] declares no conflict of interest* - [THA] Motion fails 1:4:2 01:25:51 - 01:29:41 - [THA] I believe that we should move on to hearing from [BOB] - [FVP] I would like to propose a motion to give [BOB] a formal warning as a member of the club for the comments he made to [MSX] - on the basis that those comments resulted in the reaction that they had - and on that basis alone, and looking at this incident in light of what happened - now in this specific case, and in this specific () - I believe [MSX] has conveyed to everyone present - And not with consideration of any previous infringements or warnings or other perceptions of [BOB]'s () made in the past - [THA] Thank you. I would like to point out that we have still not heard from [BOB] regarding this. - [JGM] On the topic, conflicts of interest aside, bias. - We haven't even heard from [BOB] yet there's already a motion on the table to give him a warning - Where does the committee stand on this - [FVP] I believe this is the appropriate time for [BOB] to have his (say) - [MSX] () - [FVP] I believe, now that there is a motion, that this is the appropriate time for [BOB] to have input () - [THA] do we have any seconds for that motion? - No. () - [MSX] Maybe before we second that motion we should respond to... [BOB] should respond and then it will make more sense to move the motion - [TEC] Can I suggest that that happens separately for any motions about any particular acts related to this, are actually made () *[NTU] leaves 16:55* - [THA] [BOB] would you like to respond? 01:29:42 - 01:40:03 - [BOB] I think that motion is very much in line with the way the rest of this has been handled - Which is, how do we punish first, and ask questions later - And I think it's disgusting () - [THA] I was not asking for you opinion on the motion, but rather, in regards to the allegations - As in the complaints - [BOB] Alright, so. - I think these complaints can be broken down into two sections. - One is the incident that UCCans, specifically between [MSX] and I and () - And the other one, the assorted things, laundry list if you will, of things that have been said about me thereafter. - And I think has shaped [MSX]'s reaction to the incident - Given that it has shaped her reaction - Given that those things have shaped her reaction, I would like to address those first - So, I'm going to start at the top of the list - I would like if the chair permits a little bit of back and for, going to be a little bit of clarification needed on these items - Firstly, insurance fraud. - This is the first that I've heard about this one - I will tell you about what happened in 2010 - So in 2010, March 22nd, we had a hailstorm come through, we lost the windows into our machine-room, we lost our skylight - At the time, the club was entirely self funded - We had a lot of old equipment - nonetheless, enterprise grade - We additionally had via the guild new for old insurance - Everything was automatically covered - Part of the insurance process, involved getting 2 quotes for every item, had to produce an itemized list - Sorry, 3 quote - They had to be examined by 2 experts to declare them actually broken, which we did - We then had to get 3 replacement quotes for the items that were damaged - And some of those items came out as very expensive - because they were enterprise class equipment and replacing them like-for-like was absurdly expensive - The reality of that situation is that we actually could have claimed a hell of a lot more - Had a lot of CRT screens at the time, were effectively obsolete by then, $800 a piece to replace - [BOB] made a call that everyone thought, including the insurance company, would be more reasonable to quote up LCD screens - They came in at $200 and something a piece - I don't think I was unreasonable with the items that I got quoted as replacements - The one item that did come in as a big ticket item was a SUN desktop - The reason for that was because the club at the time was very keen on cross-architecture building of things - And it had a SUN-(v4?) processes - The reality is that at the time, the only available SUN processor available on the market in a machine was in a $15000 () - So I quoted that and the insurance company said okay - So yes, we got $54000 insurance, I am happy to provide an itemized list, and the quotes - I don't believe that was fraudulent in any way - [MSX] What I was told was that a number of machines were in operatively broken prior to the incident, () - [BOB] No. - [MSX] Is there documentation to support the (that the machines were working)? - [BOB] The prior position, no? - In any case, you would have to go find it () - [BOB] I think if you consider how much equipment we have in the clubroom now, the majority of the things were desktops () - We had some spare enterprise gear which was under the project bench - and that was literally hot spares and available spares for the machine room - We tend to throw stuff out that breaks, we had enough old broken stuff, sorry, old obsolete stuff that when it broke it wasn't worth keeping - And we were also very space constrained at the time - [MSX] So the old, obsolete stuff that was () if something was broken prior, was that touted as (having happened in the storm) - [BOB] I don't think we made claims on things that were broken prior - [MSX] Is there anyone else who was around at the time, who would be able to confirm that? - [BOB] Maybe, I don't know - [NTU] The short answer is yes, there are many. And I would wonder if this of line of questioning is in good faith. - [MSX] I know. I'm suggesting that there is a way to put this thing to bed, once and for all for the future of the club - is to check with, to compare a memories of club members at the time - but I'm not going to be a part of this process - but to compare memories of club members at the time to confirm what was actually done, and if it is the consensus of them that it was done correctly, that should be recorded in the minutes - assuming that () what the club members agree upon at the time and then that can be closed and put to bed - [NTU] I wonder if this is in good faith, because it sounds like a reversal of burden of proof - [MSX] I'm not saying that it cannot be denied that that is the basis for opportunities to () - I'm saying that (that is a way) to put this to bed - This is not a court of law, this is an investigation by committee - I suggest that it be done in a positive manner without () It should be looked into properly because the allegations are () - [THA] I would like to say that from what I've heard, this is actually the first I'm ever heard of there being the possibility of there being insurance fraud - Considering that the person you said told you was [042], I know him and I know that he is a very hyperbolic person, so I imagine that it could be something that was misspoken by him - [MSX] I've the asked other people, who's name I don't have permission to use, what they thought and there was the impression that there was lots of broken gear () - I wasn't here at the time and I want to do my part, cause this is a very serious issue for me to watch, I was made secretary of the club - Now that I am no longer going to be secretary of the club, it's no longer an issue for me, it's an issue for the club. - All I want to suggest to the club, is that if you looked into it fairly and carefully - [BOB] I have no objections to the club looking into it - I mean, I suggest you speak to somebody like Daniel Axtens I don't know if he is a lawyer now, but he was certainly a law student () - And he is also, I think he is no longer a member of the club. He was a wheel member. The Vice-President, FR 2009, OCM 211. - Matt Didcoe was the president at the time. Absolutely no qualms about the club () again, transparently, and fairly - I am completely open, go nuts. But I will note that it was 9 years ago, and that I think whoever went chasing this is really () - [MLG] If you want to check this in a completely impartial manner, I suggest that UCC take some of their 50k and then spend a chuck of it to hire an auditor for () - That way, we can know that we have a properly impartial decision being made (by hiring a professional to do it) - [THA] Is there any more discussion on this or can we move on? - [BOB] Can we move on to the next thing in the list? - [THA] Yes. 01:40:03 - 01:50:32 - Finn: () allegations of insurance fraud, there was a bit about, not sure of exact working *looks to [MSX] - [MSX] There was the issue with the bank - [THA] I think is being covered later - [MSX] I'll present the evidence. - The account was opened one month prior to club (becoming an incorporated association) - [BOB] I believe Westpac let us open an account with just an ABN as a community group - There after, we changed the details into the club's name. - [MSX] Was the bank account open in the club's future name or in the name of the club at the time? - [BOB] So in the name of the club at the time - [MSX] () Has this been investigated to make sure? - [BOB] I'm unsure what you are implying was intended by it - [MSX] What I was told, cause I wasn't here, so what I was told was that when the account was opened it (with the wrong information) stating that you were an association, when the club wasn't and that there was a breach of the incorporations act in relation to that - [BOB] I wouldn't have done that, and I'm sure I didn't do that. - [MSX] So that is very reassuring, but there is something that can be easily checked - And if that checks out, also () - [BOB] Hence why I'm trying to go through these /cutoff - [MSX] But it should be checked - [BOB] I am unsure what possible reason though, that I could have had to open a bank account a month before in a name /cutoff - [MSX] () insurance payout, but once again, this is very easy to check, assuming it was done correctly, it is simply a matter of procedural () - And if it checks out - [BOB] I can assure we were 100% moving to incorporate the club well before that bank account was opened. - [NTU] The corporation was a procedure that took time, clearly no fault would fall just to [BOB] there were multiple signatories on the account - So it does seem irrelevant to any specific issues with [BOB] - And I think he's being asked again in bad faith - Because you are speaking about stuff about [BOB] specifically when the records can be found and you'll need it - You've heard this second-hand and formed an impression /cutoff - [MSX] It has been told to me, in my position as an executive member /cutoff - [NTU] I don't know, it sounds like you might have been more personal - So it's been told to you - [MSX] But once I'm aware of this, as a committee member of the club, if I don't deal with it, it could affect (me?) - [NTU] This does not seem to be specific to a dispute with [BOB], formal or otherwise - I think this is clearly a separate issue, but given that it does not seem to be raised in good faith - Like the insurance fraud, you need evidence before you make this kind of allegation because - [BOB] It can be very damaging - [NTU] So running with what someone told you is not a responsible way to put this allegation - You had a perfect reason to investigate it, if you choose not to, maybe someone else will - But it isn't (germane?) for this discussion - [MSX] You have accused me of bad faith? - [NTU] No, well, yes. - [MSX] Even though, this is an allegation that as long as it (exists) can easily be, like, I've raised it openly, I've spoken to, I've actually asked for [BOB] to be given a chance to speak, and it's very easy to put to bed and assuming it's untrue there will be no bad consequences from that allegation on [BOB] - You [NTU] have accused me of bad faith, frankly every time we've spoken or met since I've walked in the door of this clubroom and this is part of what makes me uncomfortable here. - You have accused all my actions of being in bad faith. I am leaving the club and therefore the whole issue is moot. - I simply (wanted to bring these issues up) before I leave - [JGM] JTC This specific instance definitely requires investigation, however, just for the sake of () can I request that we hear [BOB]'s side of this instance and move on - [THA] He has already responded to this specific incident - [MLG] I would just like to point out that at the committee meeting earlier today, you accused him ([BOB]) of insurance fraud, how is that a way of giving him a medium to give you an opinion back on that? And be able to talk to you about that - [MSX] Actually, what I said, assuming I said it correctly, was that I was told allegations that he had committed insurance fraud - [MLG] And then you said that you brought them up in a forum that he could respond to, but when you brought them up originally, he wasn't around to respond. - [MSX] The intention was that at some point the committee would give him a chance to respond after we had gathered our own investigation of what's going on - Which is a normal procedure - Now, I might be (excused) in that I have experience running a pty limited company, I have run this sort of an incorporated association before - So maybe my way of doing things is more (different) - Generally, these sorts of allegations are first looked into to see if there are grounds privately - [MLG] Have they been looked into already? - [MSX] Because of all of the drama I was () in my ability to - [NTU] On the question of bad faith, please don't generalise. I'm being very specific about what I'm talking about - One is a reporting that someone told you about insurance fraud on the part of [BOB] - Another is the reporting of opening a bank account (incorrectly) again on the part of [BOB] - I think those two are specific things. I am struggling to see how they are in good faith, they seem to me in bad faith. - These specific things, it's like dumping a bunch of work on other people - You are saying 'well, I heard this, and I think you guys should investigate this, but I'm leaving' - [MSX] I would have liked to investigate it myself but I didn't have access to documents /cutoff - [NTU] That's in dispute - [MSX] It's in dispute, but I tried and I tried along with [FVP] and I couldn't. - I want to add one other thing to this, which is that you've been accusing me of bad faith, since I came to this club - [THA] Can we stop this for now and move on. - [BOB] Regarding 'bad faith' I don't think people go around randomly telling the secretary that [BOB] committed insurance fraud and that [BOB] fraudulently opened bank accounts - I feel like they have to be as if someone is searching for such information - And I don't think that it was appropriate for you to go around looking for a laundry list of things to throw at me - [MSX] I did not prompt that information about insurance fraud - It was an unsolicited phone call made to me - I'm pretty sure he called me as part of giving me a handover, as club secretary - This came out then, I did not prompt it - Finn: With regards to the bad faith thing, I understand why you might feel that way, but potentially (if I was in your situation I might feel that way) but I believe that [MSX] intention is not to drag [BOB]'s name through the mud. - It is to clear the reputation of the club itself - Because that is one of many things including the culture of the club - Which is a separate issue that (UCC has a bad reputation?) - That's something that we can all agree should be fixed. - [THA] Next topic 01:50:33 - 01:54:45 - [BOB] Next item on the list - Issues with [BOB]'s behaviour regarding the beer incident in 2017 - Prior to 2017, there was a massive precedent for being able to have a single or two quiet beer in the club room - Yes, I had a beer in the clubroom - Yes, I did it quietly - For the sake of the club, because somebody took it to tenancy it couldn't be () - Nonetheless, it was treated with, I got kicked off door - I have faced the consequences of that - I don't see how it is relevant to now - Finn: I would like to dispute that it (). Yes, it was a victimless crime, but potentially, it could have had consequences - [BOB] We aren't dealing in potentials - We are dealing in what actually happened - What actually happened was I sat on that couch, and yeah, I drank a beer in the clubroom - That's what happened - The tenancy chair at the time took issue with me - She doesn't like me - She, along with somebody else, went and fished the bottle out of the bin and subsequently called security. - I view the club as worse off for not being able to have a quiet beer in the clubroom - but nonetheless, I was punished for that and I don't believe that other people raising it is relevant nowadays - [MSX] So I want to point out something, I did not choose what was raised to me - Without anything else, had I known this was a non-profit association - I wouldn't have, in the first place accepted a nomination to a executive committee role because it is a very different responsibility than dealing with a university club - Having agreed to it already, I would have stayed on if it were not for these type of issues - I did get a very clear impression of your from right after the meeting that you did not want me on committee and that you couldn't explicitly say that but you implied it as strongly as you possibly could - my reaction to that was to offer to resign - if people don't want me on committee, I'm going only a new member on the club - it did upset me as well - [THA] This is reiterating something that has already been stated - [MSX] I'm clarifying it a bit further - [THA] I'd like to suggest /cutoff - [MSX] I'm addressing the bad faith, I'm explaining why I looked into what I looked into - Give me a little bit of () - What happened was when I said I was going to resign, [FVP] gave me a bunch of information - He called a number of other people to tell them about the fact that I had said I was going to resign - Now it is possible, I'm not sure, but this may have prompted some of the other things that I was told - I was also visibly upset - This caused a number of other people who had been upset by UCC, and that number is a significant portion of the women in the university right now - To go and tell me their stories () - [BOB] The beer incident, I don't think should have shaped anybody’s attitude towards me 01:54:46 - 02:11:10 - [BOB] Next point - Email to Tom regarding account locking (Tom trying to make meeting go smoother) - [BOB] I'm trying to address the list because I believe it shaped the subsequent response to this and I think perhaps will non-willingness to accept my apology - [MSX] I didn't say that I am not willing to accept your apology - I said no such thing - Finn: (what apology?) - [BOB] (I haven't had a chance to address it yet?) - [THA] Stay on topic - [BOB] Copying the clubroom keys - multiple different keys - I do have a clubroom key, no I did not copy it. I don't have the ability to copy it. I only have one clubroom key - That was given to me by a long past member who was ceasing to be a member of the club, was not part of any other committee roles keyset - and yes I have a (local) - Additionally, I do have all of the spare keys for the computers - I was responsible for buying all of the security locks - I deliberately kept the extra keys as a collection - Not because I'm trying to hoard them and have all the power - I am literately trying to stop their security becoming weakened - It would be like if we had 50 copies of the safe key, for example. We don't want that - [NTU] This is in the key register, the usual place, and I worry that it's being raised as a point of () - [BOB] yet another reason to try and get rid of [BOB] - [NTU] It's well documented. It is not a revelation. It is unsurprising - [THA] Next on the list? - [BOB] The bank account we've already addressed - The last thing is that '[BOB] might go rouge and retaliate' - I think in the same sentence was 'I've known [BOB] for a long time' which I think is () - I've been aware of this incident since the Saturday after the AGM - I've had three weeks to retaliate and I am very disappointed that people think so little of me that I would - I've been the one that's been called in to deal with other rouge emergencies - Including one wheel member who was using UCC systems to harass his ex. - So yeah, I'm pretty disgusted at that. - That you questioned that - Finn: Please stop being () so you said that (previous incidents) shouldn't shape their opinion of you - I disagree in that you violated the tenancy agreement - The issue, you said that you don't have any ability to copy keys, correct me if I'm wrong, but - I was under the impression that anyone can go to a key smith - [()] No. They are restricted from copying - [BOB] No locksmith would copy them - Finn: Thank you for clarifying - I also heard rumours that you have a copy of the key to the whole building - [BOB] Incorrect - Finn: Okay. The part about you potentially going rogue and retaliating,. I want to bring up [MSX]'s concern that her server password was changed to the point where it needed /cutoff - [MSX] The BIOS administrator password my server () the only way to resolve that problem is to change the system - After significant investigation () - [BOB] I had nothing to do with that. - [MSX] I have not accused you of that. But it did happen - [BOB] I'm sorry to hear that. I am happy to help you undo that. - [MSX] Do you believe it is undoable? - [BOB] surely you can - [MSX] I believe you actually can't do that (Irrelevant technical discussion) - [THA] We have six wheel members here - This is the first that I've heard of this - Has anyone else heard of this happening of reasons why? *silence* - Okay, that is concerning - [FVP] We can check the webcams archives, I'm assuming and work out. () - Finn: I would like to make it very clear that my point of the BIOS password being changed () to you potentially going rogue - I want to make it very clear that that's something that [MSX] () - I personally assumed that you particularly had something to do with that () - Sorry, I don't know much about you at all. I just want to make it very clear that () - [MSX] I can speak for myself and say that it is not impossible that (() could crash and do something like that) it is unlikely from a technical side - it just appeared to me that someone had done it - given that the cost to me of fixing this thing is less than an hour of my consulting time, I haven't taken this thing as a serious issue - I've taken it as an annoyance () - What I'm going to say to this is that if the specific serious allegations can be resolved, then the remaining issues that we have here are cultural issues - And issues that () and make me feel really uncomfortable from very early on. - And those issues need to be addressed for the sake of the club () - [JGM] Raise a point regarding you've had an influx of complaints in particular against [BOB] - As I see it, the public client on the forums and all the emails really would be such that it would be easy for anyone who has anything against him ([BOB]) to potentially ride that (wave) - As such, I don't think it's quite right to say that people were casually mentioning it - I feel that it was in a climate where it would have brought about the worse things - [BOB] I think if you talk about anybody publicly and say that 'I don't like what they've done' - I think you will find that a lot of people, will pull up their history, ' aww, I didn't let it either' in reality that's not /cutoff - [MSX] That wasn't the chronology though - The chronology was: - Because the act of my resigning, I did resign, and I did say I had resigned after you had told me that I couldn't do the job - My reaction to that was not to be (nasty?) my reaction was () people do not want me to be secretary of this club - And weeks after I joined, things happened. - In addition to that I was very upset because, like most people who are transgender, I have trauma about being excluded from things - It is easy after experiences like that a lot in our lives, to be suspicious that people having had (bad attitude) about you or just because of the differences in your life experience, don't want you around and prefer to kick you out - Now, my general instinct in those situations, if that's happening, to get out - because if you don't get out, it will escalate, it will escalate to someone being physically violent - The life skills we have as trans people, are that when something like that happens, leave - But then, instead of being allowed to leave quietly, [FVP] asked me to stay - Even now that I've tried to resign, he insists that I take a two week notice period. - [THA] The two week notice period is in the constitution - [FVP] On that last point, I didn't ever say that you had to come in, I just said that you can if you want to - Maybe in doing so implied, but that was not intended - [NTU] That is something that is part of the current topic of conversation - We have to face up to the fact that we are all volunteers - We all want the club to work - However, to force volunteers in any group, wheel group, committee group, sprocket group, door group, you can't make them do things - Yes, there is something in the constitution that says committee resignations take two weeks - And I think it could do with some nuance - I'm not trying to fight with you - I'm not trying to (bully?) you - () got defensive that things weren't right - I've tried to be really, really specific - I've tried to be really welcoming - You wanted to know how your machine was firewalled - I firewalled your machine - After I was setting it up the way we needed to (for UCC) - I'm sure we'll get to that - One thing that you've said was, your reasons for resignation - I understand that you talked about the specific thing on the day of the AGM - Why not resign then? - [MSX] The key reason for my resignation is that I am a law student and I am deeply concerned about the () there is situations in the club that might (limit?) my ability to become a lawyer - Had I been an IT student and not a law student in the same situation - I would have taken a lot of facts in different light - The insurance thing for example, if I didn't have a legal obligation to (find out?) about these sorts of things - I would have gone, oh wow, we've got (all new gear?) - I would be like 'well done [BOB]' () - [NTU] Can I ask that the meeting at large, you had reasons that you hadn't brought up about why you resigned one week ago, at committee meeting one week ago - [MSX] I can add that reason - It was because, I think, made an initiative to get people to join the club, that initiative was voted on in a committee meeting and then got raised again in a second committee meeting - The context in which it was raised was that you believed that I had done something in bad faith, and it was easy to resolve over time - the committee had hoarded over the domain that I had tried to use 'to troll the club' - It was just pulled down and cancelled - On the possibility that I may be acting in bad faith, it was proposed and voted that basically the club sit on that domain name and I think it was part of the problem - There were a number of other proposals that I made - I made a proposal that under my own initiative that I write a script that my own machine reports the temperature and that can be used in a heighted emergency to initiate a shutdown - I was told that... the reaction that I got was not an encouraging reaction - [THA] My understanding from that email chain was that people saw you went 'oh, I want to write a script for this' and people went 'oh, there's a bunch of other options as well' - That was my understanding of the email chain, perhaps you saw it differently - [MSX] It was how it was said. - I went and said 'yeah, but I'd like to write this' - and there was further criticism about reinventing the wheel - there was not an encouragement for a person who wants to - There's a hell of a lot of stuff that's been done at this club that already exists in other forums - [NTU] I'm trying not to completely (delay?) this, but I am trying to say that what I'm saying is very specific to one thing at a time - And I do feel that some things need to be changed - You were told, someone told you about a potential insurance fraud, someone told you about a potential bank fraud - And I’ve challenged those two things, and I've challenged whether UCC should have anything to do with this other thing - I'm not trying to attack - [MSX] When you tell a trans person that they're acting in bad faith - [THA] calls the meeting back to order. 02:11:11 - 02:19:59 - [THA] does anyone have any points that they would desperately like to be raised now? - I would rather that we move onto the second list that [BOB] has as it is kinda getting late - [MSX] I think that's a consensus, we can deal with this stuff later - [THA] Happy with that? Good, [BOB] second list. - [BOB] On the 14th of March in IRC, you stated that 'I came to the conclusion based on this and previous events that you seriously didn't like me and that you wanted me out' - Can I please ask, what the previous events were? - [MSX] Previous events were, I understood at the time, that you basically didn't want me to sit in the tav - [FVP] allowed me to put my machine in the machine room, it was firewalled twice - When I told you that [FVP] had given me permission, you told me that you don't believe that he gave permission - When you accuse a transgender person of lying, they see it differently to other people - It will have a different emotional reaction, a different psychological reaction - Because we are accused of lying (as part of the) fact that we exist - And it is extremely (hard? painful?) - Our first interaction, I mentioned about installing my server - you said we don't do that - When I said [FVP] had already given permission - I had already got a server from eBay - You said, effectively, that you don't believe that [FVP] actually gave me permission - And after that, () next week I wanted to out with everyone else again to eat, and you took the group and left, and the whole group left and just left me there and I wasn't sure if it was at the usual place or not - and so I couldn't go with everyone - And that along with other things in the club like bits and pieces that gave me the conclusion that you didn't like (me?) - Now, it is (informed?) by being a trans person, but - To be told (could collate, could not collate) spent ~$1000 dollars and having already bought that equipment to then be told no is pretty distressing - and the fact that the younger people said 'cool no problem' and that you being one of the more conservative people said 'I won't let you' - those sorts of situations generally, in my life are transphobic - [THA] [BOB] do you have anything to respond to right now? - [BOB] Yes - Our first interaction was not, I don't think, at least, was not actually at Chelsea’s - You jumped in the committee IRC channel and said "I ([MSX]) finally got the new IBM server working" - And I was talking about it with [FVP] about IP addresses etc - ([MSX] said something? on irc) - To which I replied, and I hadn't met you yet, I had no idea who you were, no preconceptions - "What is this server going to be for? We don't normally colo gear for people so soon after they join" - [MSX] That may be the case, I didn't know. I'm trying to remember. That was before I met you? - [BOB] I believe so. (discussion over dates) - [BOB] I believe that was our first interaction, completely aside from who you are and your being trans - That is the thing - We don't normally colo gear for people so soon - [FVP] had not informed us of anything he has said regarding that - [MSX] that could be possible but you could understand that at the time, being new to the club, I did not make the connection between [BOB] on IRC and [BOB] in real life - So when on Monday, you made the accusation... (Still trying to get dates and first interactions correct) - [JGM] () Ultimately the club doesn't really trust people early on. () - Seems like there has been a bit of a misunderstanding on the word, the way in which things have been conveyed - I was informed of all this in a moderately direct manner - But I do seem how it could be misinterpreted - [MLG] About to leave. Quick objection to people being considered conservative being () - I take offense at the allegation of UCC being considered to be an alt-right group. - [MSX] Never directed comments specifically towards you. - [MLG] You sad the club, I'm part of the club. - I'm also a girl (reference to IRC chat/club culture) . - [MSX] There were certain comments made particularly when I discussed transgender issues in the clubroom. - Finn: [MLG] You've expressed that you've not had similar experiences as a women feeling unwelcome, that's great, I'm glad that you haven't felt that way, but your experiences are not universal - [MLG] I agree that my experiences are not universal, my original point, which is IRC, is that evidence is not anecdotes (when discussing the generally issues of the club). *[MLG] leaves* 02:20:00 - 02:27:25 - [NTU] One of the messages that it's easy to mishear, is that people mean by trust - So we don't trust people to join wheel, which can basically read and write every file that we have - Read other people emails (is the usual example) - We had a list of guidelines that should be protection for the kinda of fear - And we try very hard, and it's work in progress, to make sure that the () - We don't have to trust them, to do what they want to do. - But it is possible, [JGM] you may have misheard that message - [JGM] I'm saying that I get that it could have been misheard, I got that. - [NTU] I appreciate that it's hard messaging to be really consistent - We document what we can, and we are in the best position that we ever have - That things like () machines is public (Hard to hear [NTU] sorry) - [MSX] (Wants to know why you need the same permissions to 'read people's emails' and to install software on computers) Over the last few weeks, when I was saying that I wanted to be on wheel, what I meant was I wanted to be on sprocket, but I didn't know at the time. - [NTU] When you said that you couldn't publish minutes, that's not sprocket. - [MSX] That's webmasters - [NTU] No, it's not. - [MSX] Well, I'll show you what happened and we can reproduce that - How () people sending me messages that were very, very triggering to me, as a transgender person - Had somebody turned around and said to me, for instance, wheel access means you can read other people's emails and we can't let somebody do that would have been whatever - Maybe we can give you access, what things are you trying to do, and maybe we can assist you there - Had they responded in that sort of way, it would have been more positive - [THA] Getting heated, stick to the matter at hand - [BOB] Can I address the other things? - [MSX] Yes let's do that. - [THA] Similar to before, [BOB] should make a statement, and then discussion after - [BOB] Still on the topic of things before the AGM that made you think I was (rude?) - Me saying that colos were not usually permitted - The other one you mentioned was that I left without you to go to Chelsea pizza. - I don't recall that night, but what I will say is that I usually organise with people on IRC who I'm going with - This whole event just started with [TPG] and {NTU] and I, just as mates, hacking nights and dinner - Over time that has kind of organically grown to the point where the club seems to think that it's their event - But the point is that frequently, I will drive in and phone, and someone will yell out 'who needs a lift' - Sometimes, I'll come up and call out, 'are you coming?' - Sometimes, I won't come at all - Usually it's organised in advance, it's very, organic, I didn't deliberately leave you behind - Sorry that happened - It wasn't trying to be exclusionary - Other people find their way to Chelsea’s other ways - The time for Chelsea pizza has been 5:40 on a Monday night now for about 8 months. - I don't believe I was being exclusionary - I think in this case, it's like what [333] said and I honestly think it is false () - [MSX] I'm happy to take your word for it - There's other sorts of things that the club needs to investigate (in future) - What a lot of these issues come down to are cultural issues - There are issues in which a lot of women, many not all women as [MLG] pointed out, a lot of women, and probably more or less all trans people and queer people. When I say all, it is an approximation. - There's many who've said - What I'm saying is that I had a very unpleasant experience in the club relating to the club culture and a lot of people have had similar experiences and you can see in the gender ratio of the club, which would be quite different given the actual gender ratio of women in tech be the result of this - [BOB] I'm dealing with the issue with me here - [MSX] We'll get back to that later () - [THA] Back to the relevant discussion - [JGM] Can I hear the rest of that discussion? The comment you were making about - [THA] Please check the minutes for that instead 02:27:26 - 02:41:07 - [THA] would like to leave and have dinner soon - [BOB] Were those the two main things that happened before the AGM that meant you didn't like me? - [MSX] Yeah. () - There was also things like, example: [NTU] telling you that he didn't trust me - There was somebody who, when I was talking about my credentials, behind me said 'you're lying' - And that played a big role - [BOB] was that before or after the AGM - [MSX] That was before - [BOB] So, again, I had nothing to do with all of that - [MSX] Yeah. I think that it's entirely possible that some of these issues with me in particular would have resolved themselves had I not had myself in the situation () - If this was a uni club, or if I'd not taken a committee role, I would have been a lot less concerned about various other things I've discussed today. - My personal concern was because I put myself in a position when I'm expected to be concerned about these kinds of things - And expected to be competent about them - So leaving that issue aside, if somebody, if you or if anybody tells me after I put a negative impression on something that they did that it's not their intention, I will believe them - And you've said that you did not mean me any negative (vibe?) I'm fine with that - I hope that other people in the club will do the same thing for me - Because there is a world of difference between 'we don't want to let you read other peoples' emails' and on the other hand (give me) the ability to install software on machines () - and on the other hand, we don't trust you in general - The impression I get, and I'll say it this way, it is an extremely common reaction to trans people - And amongst women in tech it is also at least a relatively common reaction. - [THA] Going off topic - [BOB] Can we please just work on the premise for a moment, that I was not in fact unhappy with you taking secretary - Other people aside from committee have actually questioned me about what happened after the AGM - Which I have actually got a written response - I would like to read that out. - After the AGM the other day, which I attended and was RO for, I went to the clubroom to catch up with some people to go to the tav with. [MSX] was there. - Knowing that handover is traditionally done very badly, and she is new to the club, I decided to help her make a list of the things that needed doing for handover. - I listed the things that came to mind that are usually forgotten - 1 Update the motd. Get a wheel member to help you with that - 2 Make sure everyone is subscribed to the committee@ mailing list - 3 Update the committee-only emails – this is not a mailing list and is done using mail aliases, so you will need to get a wheel member to help you - 4 Update the Committee page on the wiki – anyone can do that - 5 Update the committee group page on the website – webmasters can do that - I can put you on webmasters - [MSX] You didn't tell me at the time that you could put me on webmasters - I was not aware of that. - [BOB] Sorry, I should have - I do note that on IRC previous to that time I had been on the committee IRC (offered to help?) - [MSX] I have no recollection of that. It certainly may have happened, and I failed to read it. - [NTU] My initial reaction on interaction with you [MSX] when I saw you online which was 'hey, I want to redo the website' - was, overly ambitious - [BOB] - Point 6 I’m not sure if I mentioned getting the committee group attributes done in AD (don’t think I did), but if I had, I would have pointed out that wheel would need to assist with it. - I would also say that at the time, any of the wheel things, I was trying to direct to [MPT] who was sitting on the computer nearby. Trying to make it so that it was like a 'here's a list of what needs to be done, as handover' - What I meant to convey from my list was effectively a cheat sheet for handover. - What I think she took from my list was that she couldn’t do her job 100% without being on wheel, and that I was giving her a list of things that could only be done by wheel to show my disapproval of her getting the secretary role. - At the time, nothing could have been further from the truth, and I blindly did not realise that I was discouraging her. - So the conversation progressed to her saying she would “have to get on wheel immediately, how can she do it?”, to which I responded: -[BOB] “traditionally wheel has been invite only. Some people have applied and been put on, but I honestly don’t think they would approve your application right now”. - [MSX] “why not?” - [BOB] “Because we haven’t known you long enough to trust you yet” (she has been a member for about a month) - [MSX] Now, what I recall was that, had you said, 'we've only known you for a month, we don't know you well enough to trust you yet' versus 'you will never be a wheel member' - Those are two very different recollections - [BOB] I don't think I said that, I also don't think I had any beef to say that, and I don't think that I would say that. - [MSX] I think there was some anger at the time when I asked to be on wheel - [BOB] Umm, I did find it over-eager. - [MSX] I didn't understand properly what wheel was, what it was actually meaning. I wanted to be able to install software on the mac that I using. So I could install (programs she wanted). I wanted to be able to help people, using my tech experience. - I wanted to be given enough responsibility that I could demonstrate my competence in order to get wheel to trust me - I don't not fully appreciate that wheel was universal - It was necessary to me to () access to all machines () - That was not the impression that I got - [NTU] It does surprise me a bit, that Linux admin, I could understand that, but (3DC admin?) that surprises me - [MSX] It surprises you because wheel on one machine (can do anything on all machines?) meaning I understood there was wheel as a set of permissions and wheel as a group, and it did not occur to me that if I was on wheel as a group, then I would necessarily give me permission to all machines - Cause that would be incredibly bad security protocol for what I assumed was the way the way things are done professionally, that you are first in a group of administrators, and then you get access to those machines, which you get on a needs basis, which is how it happens in industry - The fact that it doesn't happen here is a technical () - [NTU] It could be improved - [MSX] Wheel members should only have access to, really, machines that they need to work on - I assumed that to be the case, and worked from that context, for standard industry practice - [BOB] Apologies in advance, I don't think you are going to like this (directed at [MSX]) - The conversation then turned into a barrage of ‘I’m a law student’ and ‘I’ve run a company’ type arguments, with assorted assurances regarding resumes and references - Which I felt strongly implied that we simply had no choice but to add her to wheel. - I didn’t say “no” to her any further or try and discourage her, however I also did not say “yes”. - Then the conversation turned passive aggressive, with [MSX] saying 'well if I can’t do my job I may as well quit', to which I think I responded with “no, I think you can do your job still”. - So that was roughly the end of that part of the conversation – I think someone else interjected regarding another matter. - [MSX] Given the nature of this () I'd like to respond to that at this point. - Once again, what I wanted was not access to be able to read, write (), what I wanted was the access to be able to do my job, without having to ask other people - The comment to which I said I'm a law student, and the comment to which I said 'I run a company' was that I will be held, in this role, to a high standard, legally, compared to the average university student, and I have to execute it properly. - I need custody of documents. Custody of documents is not the same thing as access to documents - Custody of documents means that there exists a version of documents which are actually in my possession, meaning I've got the lock to the key - I can determine who can pass read or write. - That is the legal requirement - [NTU] Sorry. That's in dispute - [MSX] It may be in dispute. I can check that with the law school if you would like. - The point is that I actively () to my understanding that I could do the job and be legally compliant, and that you have to accept the consequences that it would be different for me than anyone else - Even if my understanding was incorrect, that's irrelevant, because it was and is my current understanding of what my requirements are - [BOB] I am just relaying my experience - [MSX] So we have a difference. I misunderstood you, from what you are telling me. You also then misunderstood me. ([BOB) continues with statement) - [BOB] I ended up sitting next to [MSX] a fairly short time later. - She mentioned that she was setting up another machine and would need an IP unblocked. - [MSX] not another machine, another instance on the same machine. - When was this? - [BOB] At the point that I was sitting next to you on the couch - [MSX] Right after this thing occurred, you went down to the Tav and I went to see [FVP] and say that I was going to resign - [BOB] By a short time later, I mean this was literally after someone had interjected, I think someone asked about (something to do with arts). - [MSX] I don't recall this (too much chatter) - [BOB] whatever happened kinda segmented the conversation - I ended up sitting next to [MSX] a fairly short time later. - She mentioned that she was setting up another machine and would need an IP unblocked. - I replied “sure, what ports do you want opened?”, to which she replied 'no I want the IP completely unblocked'. - She further explained that the VM host machine this new one was on was already fully unfirewalled – I responded with surprise and commented that that shouldn’t have happened - What I was thinking at the time is that it’s VERY rare for this to occur, even amongst wheel members. - I said I was not prepared to fully unfirewall another IP, but was happy to do individual ports. - She said that she may as well take her server out and host it commercially instead, that I was interfering with her ability to tinker, she was trying to set up an Xserve and not fully sure of the port numbers? - [MSX] This was not exactly what happened - [THA] Can I ask that you respond after [BOB] has finished - [BOB] She said that she may as well take her server out and host it commercially instead, that I was interfering with her ability to tinker, she was trying to set up an Xserve and not fully sure of the port numbers? - She then launched into the ‘I’ve got extensive industry experience’ talk again. - I wasn’t prepared to make a unilateral decision about it at that point, so I pointed out that wheel is normally dealing with grads with very little experience - Her situation is not something we are used to dealing with in wheel, and I would have to have a think and a talk to wheel. - I did explicitly tell her that I could unfirewall her IP completely to the VPN range so that she could VPN to UCC for testing, however she would not accept that. - The conversation then ended with [MSX] saying 'I never had to justify myself like this when I was a bloke' and a short rant about her being trans – I think trying to infer that that is why I wasn’t helping her? - Anyway, went to the tav at that point. She joined us, got a drink, and said very little. I thought nothing more of it 02:41:08 - 02:51:10 - [MSX] Can I now respond to this? - Firstly, we're not talking about VMs, we are talking about the machine that I hosted had two network ports - And the network ports each had separate IP addresses - Now I also in addition created some () not the same thing as VMs that had other IP addresses - All those () were firewalled so I couldn't access them outside of ucc. - However, the two main IP addresses were open to the network and I had maintained control over them by quickly (limiting?) what services were running - so that the machine would only answer on two or three ports - I had () running on the machine - I had, at this point, logging running to logging server - I had the machine at a state that commercially was safe to be logging to the open internet - The machine had been subject to review - At that point, the two ports were, the two IP addresses were open, between then and shortly after the AGM - It occurred to me that one of the two IP addresses was closed - was firewalled, completely () - [BOB] So it was previously open? - [MSX] It was previously open, and it had been closed - I don't know who blocked it, but I then came to you and said 'look, one of my two ports I was hoping to have () opened once they were ready, but there were two that were already open, one of them was blocked' - I had a static IP address () - (some technical talk) - One of them was refirewalled in spite of the fact that it (passed?) a security review - and that was closed - and my understanding of what you told me, was that you were going to close the other on - You were then going to ask to, I then have to request from wheel, from which I understood to be you, specifically, to open additional ports, and you would say yes or no - After the amount of time it had taken to get to this point - to get the machine approved - to get the machine plugged in and connected to UCC internet - to get the machine unfirewalled - we already were a month into term, what I was saying is - if at this point, something that's already been done and assess, and has been approved and opened is going to be closed again - and I'm going to have to repeatedly deal with these sorts of changes and rules - it's not worth it, it's too much trouble and too much hassle, I can't be in this situation - Where I'm () machine that I'm competent administering, I need to get permission to unbar individual ports - I'm in commercial data centres and have my particular uptime () is well in excess of UCCs - I have never once had a machine be (decomed?) in 20 years. - I was at the time, quite upset - It happened immediately right after you gave me the (list of tasks) - [BOB] I did 0 firewalling before or after the AGM - I haven't even looked at the firewalling - [MSX] I'm not sure who closed it. Maybe the same gremlins from unigames refirewalled it - What happened was that when I approached you about it - You said 'oh, we've only firewalled one of the two IPs we'll firewall the other one as well, and you're going to have to ask us to open ports - because we can't trust you to keep your own machine secure - It was in response that that I said right, hold on a moment, I have enough competence to secure (machine) - if it is going to be like that, I might as well host the machine commercially - And this happened right after, by the way, he told me that I could 'be on wheel' and that I would need to get other people to do some of my responsibilities as secretary - So I began to see that as being part of the passive aggressive - [THA] It seems to me as though we have a comedy of misunderstandings - [NTU] () - [BOB] Yes, and I think it should have been. However, I am aware that after this, [MSX] immediately went to committee and called for me to be removed from the club - [MSX] That's not what happened at all. - [TEC] I count another 9 items on the agenda under general business - It's currently 6:15, are we planning on just (leaving them until next week) - Do we have any plans /cutoff - [MSX] That was a very serious accusation. I would like to respond to it regardless of what happens afterwards - If we want to kinda stop the me and [BOB] thing at this point and take it out of the committee, that's fine, but I do want to respond to what [BOB] just said - And I think that is reasonable - [THA] Can I suggest that maybe the last thing [BOB] said gets taken out of the minutes, and we move on? - [MSX] No, no, no. There is a serious issue and I should respond to it. I can respond to it very, very briefly. - I only need 30 seconds (02:47:01) - What I'm going to say is this - I went to [FVP], I told [FVP] that I wanted to resign - I did not say anything that anyone should be removed from anything - [FVP] then responded that this was his nightmare - That he really did not want me to resign - That he might consider resigning too, if I resign - And then told me a bunch of stuff about these various allegations - And about, that he thinks you should be removed - And at first, I disagreed with him, but then after what he told me, I began to concur - based on the information that he was giving me, which I believe both of us had taken on on the basis that 1. multiple people had told us, and 2. the club would never () - You understand the situation - Do not assume that I acted () (02:48:00 - feels bad) - [JGM] When this is being discussed I would very much like to hear [FVP]'s perspective on this - [THA] We kind of have this thing known as time, it tends to flow in one direction and it's flowing a lot quicker than people would like, namely me. - [MSX] We could take this whole issue into working review with the people involved and sort it out - And then talk about how to fix the culture of the club - [THA] Does anyone have anything that they particularly want to move or mention with regards to this before we move on to the rest of general business? - [JGM] Do we not need to motion to follow it up? - [THA] We do not need to motion to follow it up because we technically did that at the very beginning, when we said that complaints that were done here would either be forwarded to () body or dropped. - So, if anyone wants any action to be taken with this, mention it now - [MPT] I would like to give [FVP] the opportunity to speak, because there has been a lot of other people talking things are being said about what he's done, or hasn't done, and I think he should have a chance to speak about them as well - [FVP] One note, I think it would be worth at least a note in the minutes, it seems to me that the issue at hand as been resolved by clarifying things and having [BOB] in part of the conversation - At least /cutoff - [MSX] The issue really, and I've been saying this all along, is not between me and [BOB] in part because I fully expected that one I had the chance to talk to [BOB] that this is how it's going to sort out, or it would sort out in some reasonable way - This issue is club culture - and /cutoff - [FVP] What I meant to get at was that we can leave any personal hostilities that were never committee business in the first place, potentially, but that's where it's been unclear and that's where I need to explain a bit - It seems that that has been the focus of a large number of people and how this whole thing has been perceived as, in a way, well, like. (trails off) - [BOB] It seems to be the () for a lot of other things and I'm sorry that this shaped your opinion - I daresay, you're looking at the issue through rose-coloured glasses, in that you see this as this issue between you and I, as (quote for quote?) part of a larger issue. - I'm not convinced a larger issue exists - [MSX] Well, maybe we need to talk and I can convince you. - [THA] Shushes people, directs back to [FVP] 02:51:11 - 03:02:32 - [FVP] I think, the culture issue, there is issues relating the, the culture and the perceptions of the club. - I believe I made that relatively clear, at least from my perspective by the email that I sent to the guild president, asking about representatives from the guild to help us resolve a number of issues that I listed in that email - I would also like to say, comes to the way that, or the things that I have done in relation to the rest of this stuff, I haven't had an opportunity to resolve or be involved in a process like this before, especially not in the context of UCC - and my first instinct was indeed to jump to conclusions and - acting as, well, I guess, I saw, in the best interest of the club, I still do believe there are issues and I've had thoughts about issues like the ones like culture issues I mean, not the culture related stuff, specifically - but the way, in my mind that those work, there is, [BOB] comes up in that - so for me it got mixed up a lot and so I think that's probably being weighing in on how I have perceived and responded to various things in relation to these issues - However, I think it's worth noting that at the first committee meeting we had after the AGM, so there was a meeting organised on Wednesday, I organised that as soon as I could, on the basis that I could have a executive committee - [BOB] No such thing - [FVP] Okay, so that was a misunderstanding on my part, and it later became open to all members of committee, although due to the way it had been scheduled it meant that not everyone was technically able to attend, because I hadn't checked everyone's availability beforehand and made sure of them - Anyway, the point was, I'd invited at least the president, vice president, treasurer and secretary and the two past presidents and [TAY] ended up coming along as well - I wasn't actually able to be there for an hour of that meeting - [BOB] () people who don't like [BOB] - [FVP] Yes, there were. *awkward laugher* - I made no comments on the two past presidents not liking [BOB] however I think that, the reason I did that was because I wasn't sure what to do myself and I wanted to at least have some idea of how to approach the issue - So at that meeting, it seemed like, because, and this came in the majority of people there did not like [BOB], that was quite evident. - There were a number of proposals that did reference removing [BOB] from wheel and cancelling his life membership and even removing or cancelling, or revoking membership and that was not really the intention of that meeting - And obviously, that was not the appropriate venue to be discussing that sort of stuff - [BOB] Sorry, I think you've been dishonest there. I quote 'for the exec meeting ASAP, I invited [DJF] and [GOZ] to give a bit of perspective of [BOB]'s history - That is nothing to do with getting advice - [FVP] Okay - [JGM] Could you just clarify what the meeting was organised to address? - [FVP] To address, what the meeting was there for, I wasn't sure how to response, so I had jumped to conclusions, that is evident in the way that I presented the meeting and the way it was organised, what was said, and who was attending the meeting - I think that's basically, probably equivalent to the intent, that was the intent behind the meeting - [MSX] I wanted to propose something, a couple of things that will give us a constructive point forward - The first one of which is that any discussions about removing [BOB] or allegations about [BOB] were based on a fairly significant number of people and were serious - Now the best way to put this thing to bed is to properly investigate those allegations and assuming that they are untrue, and I'm trusting people here that they are untrue, based on what people are saying here - Assuming that that has been demonstrated to be the case, and that should be easy enough to investigate - This whole thing becomes moot - The second thing that I wanted to () which is specific to myself which is I would like to shed some of this which has caused me so much stress I have not been able to study, because of the consequences of those sorts of allegations () practice law later - I would like to /cutoff - [BOB] I've been unable to focus at work for three weeks because of this issue that is disgusting, my treatment by committee has been disgusting - You owe me an apology - [MSX] I think apologies all around are great - There is one other thing which I think committee owes me, which is a week of leave starting now until my resignation - [THA] You are allowed to have, two meetings before your position is declared to be vacant, it also happens to be that the amount of time after you tender your resignation is 2 weeks, so you can put through your letter of resignation and then not show up for two weeks and it doesn't matter - [MSX] That looks different () - [THA] That's literally what [GOZ] did last year - [MSX] will anyone be willing to officially grant me a week of leave, due to the stress on my studies - [FVP] I think, on that note, would a week be, or accepting your resignation or inconsistencies with how the resignation was worded and the way the constitution was worded such that you can be resigning immediately - [MSX] the effect that I want is to forget the responsibility for in the unlikely event that any of these allegations are true, I'm being polite and saying unlikely here, I want off this committee - So that it's not. I have done everything I've shared everything I know and I want off this thing - Even if it's going to work out okay, overshadowing the committee, I do not want this over my head - Does anybody object? () - [NTU] the volunteer things, this goes straight to it, I'm sorry that you feel you are forced to do specific things - One direct complication here has been the guild - The guild is here to protect clubs (bureaucracy) and instead they give people a scary tenancy agreement that when a real lawyer comes to look at it 'OMG I'm on the hook for all this' - And it didn't used to be that way - [MSX] We're also not just a guild club, this is a, that is another issue - I wouldn't have accepted the nomination if I had known - Once again, is the club willing to (give me a week of leave) - [FVP] Motion to grant [MSX] a week of leave effective immediately - [TEC] seconds - Passes unanimously - [MSX] One last thing before I go on leave, () that's resolved our whatever, I would like to talk with all of the people who has unresolved issues in this regard - About 1. to finish up the conversation and 2. about culture, which I think is important - I remembered what I wanted to say, it is up to the committee whether I stay as a member of the club or not, I will not, based on the outcome of todays meeting, I will not leave as an ordinary member unless the club chooses. - [THA] We can remove you as a member, but I do not see a reason to - Just remain as a member and then let your membership expire at the end of the year - [MSX] I'm happy to remain as a member if things are () - [FVP] Not related to this discussion but related to what we were discussing previously - I would like to apologise to [BOB] on the record - I feel bad about this because basically it seems that through my actions directly or indirectly I have resulted in someone and maybe like every two people having had three extremely stressful weeks and that I don't think is something that I like, I guess, I have to accept responsibility for it because it does come down to me in the end - So I would like to apologise for what I have done, and anything that you perceive that I have done that has made this the case, I would also like to clarify, I actually legitimately don't fully understand what it is that I have done wrong - but I do feel bad for the general just the vibe of the thing, I'd like to apologise, if that makes any sense - [THA] I would like to put forward a motion that this committee apologises to [BOB] for our treatment of him over the last three weeks - [FVP] seconds - Passes unanimously - [THA] Our apologies 03:02:33 - 03:06:24 - [BOB] [FVP] If you are unaware of what you've done [FVP] it's a number of things that have happened behind closed doors - I have been aware of a lot of them - Because people on committee felt strongly enough about what was happening that it was not above board that they informed me of it - Then the subsequent silence when I gave you ample opportunity to be transparent and formalise any committee complaints - (no engagement) with me (or answering) me about what the complaints were and things like that - It honestly made me continuously (stressed) for three weeks - What the hell is going on - What is being plotted - And I was really starting to worry about the fact that one day, suddenly, I'd be kicked out of the club, my account be locked, and the I'd be suddenly kicked out of a club that I've been a member of for 10 years. - It's like my church - To have that and go () it's been really stressful - Just ask [MLG] - [THA] I would like to suggest that we move back to the rest of general business - Does anyone have anything further to raise, or shall we just move on? - [MSX] I'm going to go at this point, and before I leave, one thing that I want to say as a departing club secretary - Is that the allegations that have been raised here, without anyone taking them personally, are really, really serious in the associations act - Some of them () - Please look into them carefully and meticulously - while minising and emotional harm to anyone involved, but make that the club is being compliant, in the past it hasn't - () - [BOB] I would like to point out that all the insurance claim occurred before we incorporated - [MSX] That's good. It's no longer my (problem) - I've done what I can to help this along - It is no longer my responsibility or my problem - I still think there are cultural things that need to be done () - [JGM] I feel that there are a few elements, I've been asking a lot of people in the clubroom and I feel that there is definitely something not quite right, however I do not think the wording that is being used currently addresses it - [MSX] I think the issue is that the club is not welcoming to women and queer people. As it currently stands. ------------------- End of voice recording------------------------------ *Everyone is angling to leave* - Defer all other general business to next meeting *Meeting closed XX:XX* Current Action Items ==================== - [JGM] Get advertising started for tech talk - [MPT] Talk to UWA Venues about location for tech talk - [FVP] Collate camp docs from 2018 and organise time with [MPT] to work on the EMP/RMP stuff - [MPT] Write handover doc for fresher welcome - [committee] Deal with other general business that was not considered this week